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Epigenetics refers to changes in DNA. Trauma can cause activation and deactivation of genes and other changes. Those changes manifest as chronic disease, lower IQ and shorter lifespan. Intergenerational transmission of trauma refers to environmental issues like parenting styles, abuse and neglect being passed from one generation to the next. These two phenomena often occur at the same time but are two different mechanisms. 

Both epigenetic and "wire together/fire-together" changes can be inter-generational, as can *skills deficits* that are passed along, too-- which can be quite bad on their own!   If you can't self regulate, you won't co regulate your baby, and they then won't self regulate either. 

That's intergenerational encoding too though possibly not epigenetically.... except insofar as unregulated stress itself causes changes.

I don't think he disagreed as much as he didn't think it was worth addressing, in context of our conversation. I'm pretty much a science geek and love exploring the interplay between behavior, personal and social, and how it affects and is affected by gene expression. But yesterday's conversation was focused on other things.

Keep in mind. van der Kolk got fired from Harvard for junk science and more recently, from JRI, for bullying (traumatizing) his staff. I was there when that happened. He will attack those who disagree with him- men remotely, women in person. Here is the results of a google scholar search on the subject. I'm a psychologist trained in marriage and family therapy.  For decades, before epigenetics was considered a legitimate science, psychiatrist and family therapists, such Murray Bowen, have taught about intergenerational transmission of symptoms. 

Intergenerational transmission of trauma effects: putative role of epigenetic mechanisms

R YehudaA Lehrner - World Psychiatry, 2018 - Wiley Online Library
This paper reviews the research evidence concerning the intergenerational transmission of
trauma effects and the possible role of epigenetic mechanisms in this transmission. Two
broad categories of epigenetically mediated effects are highlighted. The first involves â€Ķ

Holocaust exposure induced intergenerational effects on FKBP5 methylation

R YehudaNP Daskalakis, LM Bierer, HN Baderâ€Ķ - Biological â€Ķ, 2016 - Elsevier
â€Ķ Cortisol. Epigenetics. FKBP5. Intergenerational. PTSD. Stress â€Ķ Thus, we investigated epigenetic
changes in FKBP5 methylation in Holocaust survivors, offspring, and demographically â€Ķ were also
recruited by advertisement for a separate project evaluating intergenerational effects of â€Ķ

[BOOK] Intergenerational trauma: Understanding Natives' inherited pain

MA Pember - 2016 - mapember.com
â€Ķ What exactly is historical or intergenerational trauma â€Ķ Epigenetics is indeed a hot topic, and
pharmaceutical companies are actively searching for epigenetic compounds that will â€Ķ Scientific
developments such as epigenetics can offer exciting new insights not only into how our â€Ķ

[PDF] The public reception of putative epigenetic mechanisms in the transgenerational effects of trauma

R YehudaA Lehrner, LM Bierer - Environmental epigenetics, 2018 - academic.oup.com
â€Ķ Epigenetics in the Popular Press: Potential for Oversimplification and Overcorrection Although
research on intergenerational transmission of trauma effects via epigenetic mechanisms in people
has only just be- gun, potential applications of this research does not seem â€Ķ

[PDF] Epigenetic transmission of holocaust trauma: can nightmares be inherited

NPF Kellermann - Isr J Psychiatry Relat Sci, 2013 - peterfelix.tripod.com
â€Ķ Dekel, R. & Goldblatt, H. (2008). Is There Intergenerational Transmission of Trauma? The Case
of Combat Veterans‟ Children â€Ķ Introduction Epigenetics. Nature, 447, 395 â€Ķ Franklin, TB et al.
(2010). Epigenetic Transmission of the Impact of early stress across generations â€Ķ

Epigenetic inheritance and the intergenerational transfer of experience.

L Harper - Psychological bulletin, 2005 - psycnet.apa.org
â€Ķ 131, No. 3, 340–360. Epigenetic Inheritance and the Intergenerational Transfer of Experience.
Lawrence V. Harper. Author Affiliations â€Ķ Harper, L. (2005). Epigenetic Inheritance and the
Intergenerational Transfer of Experience. Psychological Bulletin, 131(3), 340-360 â€Ķ

Living in “survival mode:” Intergenerational transmission of trauma from the Holodomor genocide of 1932–1933 in Ukraine

B Bezo, S Maggi - Social Science & Medicine, 2015 - Elsevier
â€Ķ the family has often been viewed as the vehicle for intergenerational transmission (Rowland â€Ķ the
interplay between social and biological forces, the emerging field of epigenetics postulates that
social experiences, including familial ones, result in epigenetic changes that â€Ķ

Biological pathways for historical trauma to affect health: a conceptual model focusing on epigenetic modifications

AKS Conching, Z Thayer - Social Science & Medicine, 2019 - Elsevier
â€Ķ the potential reversible nature of epigenetic modifications suggests that these trauma-induced
epigenetic effects are not â€Ķ Historical trauma. Embodiment. Health disparities. Epigenetics.
Intergenerational trauma. Indigenous health. Intergenerational effects. Developmental â€Ķ

Cultural trauma and epigenetic inheritance

A LehrnerR Yehuda - Development and psychopathology, 2018 - cambridge.org
â€Ķ The field of epigenetics has generated great interest by offering a mechanism through which
the â€Ķ Figure 1. Intergenerational transmission of biological effects of trauma â€Ķ Preconception trauma
exposure (F0) may affect the epigenetic status of maternal oocytes or paternal sperm â€Ķ

Transgenerational epigenetics of traumatic stress

A Jawaid, M RoszkowskiIM Mansuy - Progress in molecular biology and â€Ķ, 2018 - Elsevier
â€Ķ Keywords. Trauma. Stress. Transgenerational. IntergenerationalEpigenetics. Human. Rodent.
Germ line â€Ķ 4. This chapter discusses the epigenetic mechanisms important for brain functions
in the context of susceptibility to traumatic stress and its consequences â€Ķ
Last edited by Jane Stevens

The early intergenerational family therapists (Bowen with anxiety, Normal Paul with grief, Framo with object relations and Ivan Boszormenyi-Nagy with reciprocity and loyalties) focused on psychosocial adaptations, not altered genetics, to explain transgenerational transmission of symptoms.  They would have been laughed at if they did- the scientific inquiry was not there. We know know that stress and trauma affect the substance of life- DNA. Exposure can damage telomeres, the end caps of the DNA strands (chromosomes) where genes are located.

How chronic stress is harming our DNA

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/10/chronic-stress

Stress, Aging, and Telomeres

https://www.stress.org/stress-aging-and-telomeres

Telomere Shortening and Stress

https://www.azolifesciences.co...ning-and-Stress.aspx

Early-Life Stress Affects Telomeres Later

https://www.the-scientist.com/...elomeres-later-32742

There is increasing evidence that subsequent generations are affected.


Can Childhood Adversity Affect Telomeres of the Next ...

ajp.psychiatryonline.org â€š doi ‹ appi.ajp.2019.19111161
 
Jan 1, 2020 - We already know that this direct transmission of telomere length can occur with very short telomeres (10) and with long telomeres (affecting both first and second generations) (16). Thus, it is feasible that stress-related moderately shorter gamete telomeres are directly transmitted to future generations of offspring.

Intergenerational Transmission of Depression: Telomeres

womensmentalhealth.org â€š posts ‹ intergenerational-tra...
 
Apr 30, 2015 - Intergenerational Transmission of Depression: Telomere Shortening and Cortisol Reactivity in Girls at High Risk for Depression. By MGH ...

Intergenerational Transmission of Paternal ... - Nature

www.nature.com â€š scientific reports ‹ articles
 
Aug 2, 2017 - The second purpose of this study was to examine the paternal transmission of telomere length (TL) by investigating its epigenetic regulation.
by H Hehar - ‎2017 - ‎Cited by 5 - ‎Related articles

Intergenerational Transmission of Childhood Trauma? Testing ...

www.sciencedirect.com â€š science ‹ article ‹ pii
 
2 days ago - Substantiated child sexual abuse exposure was not associated with shorter telomeres in adulthood. â€Ē. Longer maternal telomere length and ...

Childhood adversity, social support, and telomere ... - NCBI

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov â€š pmc ‹ articles ‹ PMC5705286
 
Oct 5, 2017 - In turn, this has potential significance for intergenerational transmission of telomere length. The predictive value of markers of biological versus ...
by AM Mitchell - ‎2018 - ‎Cited by 26 - ‎Related articles

Childhood adversity, social support, and telomere length ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov â€š pubmed
 
Oct 5, 2017 - Childhood adversity, social support, and telomere length among perinatal ... significance for intergenerational transmission of telomere length.
by AM Mitchell - ‎2018 - ‎Cited by 25 - ‎Related articles

The contribution of parent-to-offspring transmission of ...

www.biorxiv.org â€š content
 
Mar 5, 2018 - The contribution of parent-to-offspring transmission of telomeres to the ... of trans-generational (i.e., “direct”) inheritance of telomere length.
by DA Delgado - ‎2018 - ‎Cited by 8 - ‎Related articles

Stress, Telomeres, and Psychopathology: Toward a Deeper ...

www.annualreviews.org â€š annurev-clinpsy-032816-045054
 
Jump to INTERGENERATIONAL TRANSMISSION OF TELOMERE ... - INTERGENERATIONAL TRANSMISSION OF TELOMERE LENGTH. TL has high genetic heritability of approximately 50% (Broer et al. 2013), but new research suggests that it is also directly transmitted from germ line telomeres (i.e., sperm and eggs).
by ES Epel - ‎2018 - ‎Cited by 37 - ‎Related articles

Paternal age at conception effects on offspring telomere ...

journals.plos.org â€š plosgenetics ‹ article ‹ journal.pgen....
 
Feb 14, 2019 - Adaptive intergenerational effects are more likely to emerge when ... The contribution of parent-to-offspring transmission of telomeres to the ...
by DTA Eisenberg - ‎2019 - ‎Cited by 3 - ‎Related articles
 
There is also evidence that this process can be addressed as and changed as Jane has suggested:
 

Can meditation slow rate of cellular aging? Cognitive stress ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov â€š pmc ‹ articles ‹ PMC3057175
 
Across controlled studies, mindfulness meditation appears to improve physical health symptoms and functioning across a variety of disorders, and increases measures of mental health, including reduced negative affect and increased quality of life. ... It is linked to cardiovascular disease, as well as telomere shortening.
by E Epel - ‎2009 - ‎Cited by 386 - ‎Related articles
‎Abstract Â· â€ŽIntroduction Â· â€ŽNew data: Cognitive ... Â· â€ŽMindfulness Meditation
 
 

Zen meditation, Length of Telomeres, and the Role of ... - NCBI

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov â€š pmc ‹ articles ‹ PMC4859856
 
Feb 22, 2016 - The possible pathway between meditation and telomere length seems to be that (Schutte and Malouff 2014) mindfulness leads to individuals experiencing less stress, anxiety, and depression, which are all thought to be associated with cortisol level, and this association seems to be associated with telomerase activity.
by M Alda - ‎2016 - ‎Cited by 44 - ‎Related articles
‎Abstract Â· â€ŽMethod Â· â€ŽResults Â· â€ŽDiscussion

Telomere length correlates with subtelomeric DNA ... - Nature

www.nature.com â€š scientific reports ‹ articles
 
Mar 12, 2020 - Mindfulness and meditation techniques have proven successful for the reduction of stress and improvement in general health. In addition ...
by M Mendioroz - ‎2020 - ‎Related articles

Insight meditation and telomere biology: The effects of ...

www.sciencedirect.com â€š science ‹ article ‹ pii
 
Telomeres and the enzyme telomerase interact with a variety of molecular ... Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) programs (Carlson et al., 2015, ...
by QA Conklin - ‎2018 - ‎Cited by 29 - ‎Related articles
 

The Science of Meditation's Effects on Aging | HuffPost Life

www.huffpost.com â€š entry ‹ the-science-of-meditations...
 
Dec 8, 2015 - Given that mindfulness practice has been historically connected to reduced ruminative thinking and stress, Epel's research team suggested in a 2009 follow-up paper that mindfulness meditation may also have potential positive effects on preservation of telomere length and telomerase activity.
 

Association among dispositional mindfulness, self ...

bmcpsychology.biomedcentral.com â€š articles
 
Jul 22, 2019 - A key biological marker associated with aging at the cellular level is leukocyte telomere length (LTL) [1]. Telomeres cap the ends of chromosomes ...
by SL Keng - ‎2019 - ‎

 


Physical Activity and Nutrition: Two Promising Strategies for ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov â€š pmc ‹ articles ‹ PMC6316700
 
Jump to Telomere Regulation by Physical Activity - ... exercise are sufficient to protect telomere health, while ... Finally, leukocyte telomere length was 11% ...

 

 

Five Foods That Protect Your Telomeres and Extend Your Life ...

www.ornish.com â€š zine ‹ five-foods-that-protect-telom...
 
Research shows that those with higher levels of antioxidants such as Vitamin C, E and selenium tend to have longer telomeres. Fruits and vegetables are the best sources of antioxidants, which is why a plant-based diet is highly recommended.

Exercise, Telomeres, and Cancer: “The Exercise ... - Frontiers

www.frontiersin.org â€š articles ‹ fphys.2018.01798 ‹ full
 
Dec 18, 2018 - In summary, there is evidence that exercise leads to less telomere ... that included weight loss strategies with exercises and nutrition and 58 to ...

The bacteria in your gut may reveal your true age | Science ...

www.sciencemag.org â€š news ‹ 2019/01 ‹ bacteria-your...
 
Jan 11, 2019 - Scientists say microbiome is a surprisingly accurate biological clock. ... from your ability to digest food to how your immune system functions. ... use to predict biological age, including the length of telomeres—the tips of ..
Last edited by Michael McCarthy

Hi Ingrid. Thank you! I find the differentiation confusing because my understanding is that trauma from environmental issues like abuse and neglect, causes changes in the DNA (thus epigenetics); a  traumatic "imprint"  on the DNA  is transmitted generation to generation. 

Yes, trauma can be one of the causes of epigenetic changes but it’s not the only cause. Literally anything in the environment can cause epigenetic changes. Also epigenetic changes can be positive and negative. 

They say never meet your heroes. Why? Because human beings are flawed and will always slide off those pedestals we create for them. I know a well-respected female mental health professional who once had an awful experience with Bessel. She met him after the JRI split and says he is changed. She forgives him. If she can, I think we should extend towards him kindness and the possibility of change - isn't that the heart of being trauma-informed?

I have never read anything as insightful as The Body Keeps the Score. Let's give credit where it is due. This is what he'll be remembered for, not the outworkings of his own trauma that hurt people. 

Talking of credit where it's due, thank you Michael for these amazing resources that must have taken you a lot of time to reproduce here. Like Jane, I'm a science nerd and will enjoy reading them. 

And Victoria, you are right - it is not just trauma but all kinds of environmental things that cause epigenetic changes. 

Thank you for the interesting read, everyone. So glad to be part of this community.

Lou

hmnn....I've always had great respect for those who help in healing folks via their research, writing and sharing, etc.  I value what folks bring to the table and ever mindful that we are all flawed human beings, so I don't have the hero worship for anyone. It takes a lot of work to keep one's ego in check, whatever field you are in. Coming from the music world, no shortage of ego's and I have witnessed it here in the trauma, abuse, mental health arena as well.

I do respect those who have come through hell and back, I have long felt that those marginalized, held down and hurt in life are the unsung heroes of life. My times spent with fellow trauma and abuse survivors in support groups, hospitalizations, day treatment programs, peer support centers, etc, do fit the definition of being a hero for surviving great obstacles in life. At least in my mind they are.

I do respect Bessell van der Kolk for what he has brought to the table...and I have known those who are his detractors and those who think highly of him. I don't know him, but can attest to what he did for helping a small nonprofit group, The NH Incest Center,  I was involved with many years ago in the mid 90's to the early 2000's.  Our main way of raising funds was having well known speakers come in and share their works with their peers, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, etc. Dr. Bessell van der Kolk and Dr. Anna Salter both came and spoke for free...and I have long remembered how they engaged with us, the survivors...with great respect and took any and all phone calls from those of us involved in putting on these events. Other well known folks also came and spoke at reduced fees enabling our little group to raise awareness, advocate and support survivors with resources and help keep the lights on for our little office in Concord, NH.

 

Last edited by Michael Skinner

I respect van der Kolk and Judith Herman's destigmatizing of borderline personality disorder- which was, and still is, over-diagnosed in especially women who have significant trauma histories. His contention that CBT (with 30-plus varieties) is ineffective in ludicrous. He engages in cherry-picking of research (what is known to people like myself, with years of training as a scientist-practitioner knows as "confirmation bias"). I could go into a lot more, but there is ongoing litigation and as a person from a family full of attorneys, I'm not going into any details on their advice.  I've never said van der Kolk made no contributions. I'm saying a New York Time's bestseller does not meet the rigors of science. I wlth stating that I was socialized with the value that the custodian deserves as much respect as a Nobel winning scientist. How we treat others is a great indicator of the contents of our soul. van der Kolk's contention that the relational aspects of therapy are insignificant says more about him, than the reams of extant research to the contrary.

They say never meet your heroes. Why? Because human beings are flawed and will always slide off those pedestals we create for them. I know a well-respected female mental health professional who once had an awful experience with Bessel. She met him after the JRI split and says he is changed. She forgives him. If she can, I think we should extend towards him kindness and the possibility of change - isn't that the heart of being trauma-informed?

I have never read anything as insightful as The Body Keeps the Score. Let's give credit where it is due. This is what he'll be remembered for, not the outworkings of his own trauma that hurt people. 

Talking of credit where it's due, thank you Michael for these amazing resources that must have taken you a lot of time to reproduce here. Like Jane, I'm a science nerd and will enjoy reading them. 

And Victoria, you are right - it is not just trauma but all kinds of environmental things that cause epigenetic changes. 

Thank you for the interesting read, everyone. So glad to be part of this community.

Lou

I LOVE this conversation and all the resources.  Thank you, Michael. I will totally nerd out on them! 

I would like to add to Michaels' comment that I really really really struggle, especially in light of the anti-racist consciousness, that our field is dominated by old white men.  Let me name a few that I have great respect for:  Dr. Bruce Perry, Dr. Gabor Mate, Dr. Peter Levine, Dr. Stephen Porges, Dr. Laurence Heller, Dr. Jack Shonkoff, Dr. Ross Greene, etc and they hold the reigns tight - in terms of power.   Yes, we can point to a few women or people of color that garner international recognition (i.e. Nadine Burke Harris), but the fact remains that the aforementioned individuals and others like them still hold the most power in the field.

Again, this isn't to take away from their work or the ways in which they have helped to enlighten millions of us, but the fact remains that those with the "most say" "most credit" and "most visibility" is not a reflection of gender and race superiority.  It's a reflection of patriarchal, white supremacy structures that mostly afforded these men the most opportunity.  Additionally, when I first entered this work, I kept asking - literally asking people - why wasn't there more obvious collaboration among these distinguished voices in order to raise consciousness faster.  "Why aren't we leveraging the whole for more change?" I actually asked this question directly to Dr. van der Kolk at one of his conferences (privately).  He was immediately defense mobilized and dismissed my question by saying, "I have been bringing the best and brightest minds to my conference for 30 some years..."  He didn't get what I was asking.  I asked the same question in my training with Dr. Levine's institution.  Why weren't "these men" working more collaboratively to puncture mass consciousness about this matter?  I was told "egos get in the way."  "Emily, there's a lot of ego in the field of traumatology."  Really?  S.H.I.T,... 

I know that ACES Connection has really leveraged the whole; THANK YOU!  Thank God you exist.  Where would so many be if we didn't have this platform? Where would I be if I didn't have this platform?  

I would be sitting in my bedroom, reading Bessel's work with tears streaming down my face, thinking, "How long must the suffering go on? How long?"

If you eat a specific food, that will cause specific epigenetic changes.  If you smoke cigarettes, that will cause specific epigenetic changes.  If you use psychiatric drugs, that will cause specific epigenetic changes. Some of these epigenetic changes happen to the gametes.  Many epigenetic changes happen to the developing organism starting from the time when the sperm meets the egg ie from the time of conception through one's entire life to the time of death.  

Every experience we have impacts our bodies through epigenetic mechanisms which just means that promotor regions on DNA get modified so that DNA is made into protein to affect the structure and function of the body (or to prevent a protein that would otherwise be made from being made) in very unique combinations related to experience.  This is necessary so that the organism can survive in the environment that  organism finds him or herself developing in. 

The genetic make up that we are born with (22 pairs of somatic chromosomes and 1 pair of sex chromosomes) doesn't provide enough variability to allow the human (or any biological organism) to adapt to the environment one finds oneself in.   Every experience we have affects us via epigenetics. 

Some experiences like the Dutch Hunger Winter have been found to affect gametes.  I am not sure that good and reproducible science, has shown completely which of these gamete changes can be reversed by a different environmental experience in offspring.

Also - some people who have experienced trauma do Neurofeedback to attempt to calm down their nervous systems.  I would like to suggest, that EVERY EXPERIENCE we have is Neurofeedback and operates ultimately through epigenetics.   The most natural neurofeedback that all people are exposed to and the most impactful on the developing human organism from the time the sperm meets the egg up to the age of 3 is human experience.  

It is through this human experience that the greatest contribution to "intergenerational transmission" (of behavioral traits) is made. 

Last edited by Lisa Geath

I LOVE this conversation and all the resources.  Thank you, Michael. I will totally nerd out on them! 

I would like to add to Michaels' comment that I really really really struggle, especially in light of the anti-racist consciousness, that our field is dominated by old white men.  Let me name a few that I have great respect for:  Dr. Bruce Perry, Dr. Gabor Mate, Dr. Peter Levine, Dr. Stephen Porges, Dr. Laurence Heller, Dr. Jack Shonkoff, Dr. Ross Greene, etc and they hold the reigns tight - in terms of power.   Yes, we can point to a few women or people of color that garner international recognition (i.e. Nadine Burke Harris), but the fact remains that the aforementioned individuals and others like them still hold the most power in the field.

Again, this isn't to take away from their work or the ways in which they have helped to enlighten millions of us, but the fact remains that those with the "most say" "most credit" and "most visibility" is not a reflection of gender and race superiority.  It's a reflection of patriarchal, white supremacy structures that mostly afforded these men the most opportunity.  Additionally, when I first entered this work, I kept asking - literally asking people - why wasn't there more obvious collaboration among these distinguished voices in order to raise consciousness faster.  "Why aren't we leveraging the whole for more change?" I actually asked this question directly to Dr. van der Kolk at one of his conferences (privately).  He was immediately defense mobilized and dismissed my question by saying, "I have been bringing the best and brightest minds to my conference for 30 some years..."  He didn't get what I was asking.  I asked the same question in my training with Dr. Levine's institution.  Why weren't "these men" working more collaboratively to puncture mass consciousness about this matter?  I was told "egos get in the way."  "Emily, there's a lot of ego in the field of traumatology."  Really?  S.H.I.T,... 

I know that ACES Connection has really leveraged the whole; THANK YOU!  Thank God you exist.  Where would so many be if we didn't have this platform? Where would I be if I didn't have this platform?  

I would be sitting in my bedroom, reading Bessel's work with tears streaming down my face, thinking, "How long must the suffering go on? How long?"

Emily!!! Yessss! So well expressed.  Thank you 🙏🙏🙏🙏

@Lisa Geath posted:

If you eat a specific food, that will cause specific epigenetic changes.  If you smoke cigarettes, that will cause specific epigenetic changes.  If you use psychiatric drugs, that will cause specific epigenetic changes. Some of these epigenetic changes happen to the gametes.  Many epigenetic changes happen to the developing organism starting from the time when the sperm meets the egg ie from the time of conception through one's entire life to the time of death.  

Every experience we have impacts our bodies through epigenetic mechanisms which just means that promotor regions on DNA get modified so that DNA is made into protein to affect the structure and function of the body (or to prevent a protein that would otherwise be made from being made) in very unique combinations related to experience.  This is necessary so that the organism can survive in the environment that  organism finds him or herself developing in. 

The genetic make up that we are born with (22 pairs of somatic chromosomes and 1 pair of sex chromosomes) doesn't provide enough variability to allow the human (or any biological organism) to adapt to the environment one finds oneself in.   Every experience we have affects us via epigenetics. 

Some experiences like the Dutch Hunger Winter have been found to affect gametes.  I am not sure that good and reproducible science, has shown completely which of these gamete changes can be reversed by a different environmental experience in offspring.

Also - some people who have experienced trauma do Neurofeedback to attempt to calm down their nervous systems.  I would like to suggest, that EVERY EXPERIENCE we have is Neurofeedback and operates ultimately through epigenetics.   The most natural neurofeedback that all people are exposed to and the most impactful on the developing human organism from the time the sperm meets the egg up to the age of 3 is human experience.  

It is through this human experience that the greatest contribution to "intergenerational transmission" (of behavioral traits) is made. 

Brilliant!!!!! 🙌ðŸĪ“🙌

Hi Emily

On one of "The Better Normal" webinar on Racial Health I posted several resources from Black psychologists concerning intergenerational trauma by likes of my favorite black family therapist and psychologist, Ken Hardy (a follower, in part, of Murray Bowen) and (Joy Deguy, for example). They never made it on "official" resource lists, so I will repost some of them now.

I was orignally trained in Social Work and my undergraduate training required that I minor in minor studies- I chose "African American Studies" and was introduced many of the great minds in that field through their works.

In one course, we watched a video by social psychologist, whose name escapes me (this was in 1989). Her research concerned the internalized self-image of White versus Black children and her instruments were two identical drawings of Little Bo Peep except for one had a White face and one had a Black. The respondents were White and Black young children and they were asked to describe both pictures.  The disturbing results were that both the White and Black children, girls and boys, all describe the White Bo Peep in superlatives, while the Black Bo Peep was decribed with negative adjectives.

This trauma- an assault on the self. It's described in the social psychology and sociology literature from the symbolic interactionalist approach, especially Charles Cooley's "Looking Glass Self. 

https://lesley.edu/article/per...e-looking-glass-self

We see it in literature as exemplified in Toni Morrison's "The Bluest Eye" where the little girl believes she is treated so poorly because she doesn't have White features.

The Bluest Eye pdf

https://docs.google.com/viewer...YmE4MDgwMThkM2QzNDc5

Yes, there needs to be a presence of Black therapists in prominence. Not only do they have the research behind them- they have the lived experience.

You shouldn't have to wait, like I had to, to be in a psychology graduate program to be exposed to Ken Hardy, Dr, Deruy or Michelle Alexander, who I fond after graduation. Mass incarceration, that Prof. Alexander writes about in "The New Jim Crow," is also an assault on Black families resulting in intergenerational trauma. The White men you mention are perfect example of neoliberal, post-colonial, structuralism that is over-focused on individuals at the expense of seeing the bigger picture of traumatogenics. Those marco-level issues are what needs to addressed on the participants in #BlackLivesMatter ubderstabd very well.

https://www.vanderbilt.edu/ctp/The_New_Jim_Crow.pdf

 

Ken Hardy on The Assaulted Sense of Self

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...6A5oecUWM&t=122s

Dr. Kenneth Hardy - Truama

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5mtPXRAKf8 

..Revealing White Privilege and Healing Racial Trauma with Dr. Kenneth Hardy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ssA1b0yo&t=6941s

 
 

Breaking Generational Cycles of Trauma | Brandy Wells

 

Intergenerational Trauma Animation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlqx8EYvRbQ&t=2s

 

 
1:21:36NOW PLAYING
 
 
 
5:48NOW PLAYING
 
 
How is Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome different from PTSD? Dr. Joy DeGruy explains how trauma can be passed on generation ...
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Thanks for your kind words, Emily! I agree that some egos have really gotten in the way of collaboration. But we're showing the way that collaboration works faster and better, thanks to everyone who participates in ACE Connection and continually demonstrates its power!!

Michael, thanks for all your resources. We'll mine them for our anti-racism resources, so that they get more eyeballs. Thank you for highlighting Ken and Joy's work; they have taught me so much over the years.

I respect van der Kolk and Judith Herman's destigmatizing of borderline personality disorder- which was, and still is, over-diagnosed in especially women who have significant trauma histories. His contention that CBT (with 30-plus varieties) is ineffective in ludicrous. He engages in cherry-picking of research (what is known to people like myself, with years of training as a scientist-practitioner knows as "confirmation bias"). I could go into a lot more, but there is ongoing litigation and as a person from a family full of attorneys, I'm not going into any details on their advice.  I've never said van der Kolk made no contributions. I'm saying a New York Time's bestseller does not meet the rigors of science. I wlth stating that I was socialized with the value that the custodian deserves as much respect as a Nobel winning scientist. How we treat others is a great indicator of the contents of our soul. van der Kolk's contention that the relational aspects of therapy are insignificant says more about him, than the reams of extant research to the contrary.

It's not possible to end child adversity or create a peaceful, non-violent world without understanding what the developing infant and child needs to form a secure personality and without providing these developmental requirements to every infant and child.  Children develop a secure personality through a compassionate, responsive, reciprocal, empathic relationship with parents and other adults.   When this doesn't happen, we develop personality structures that aren't compatible with a peaceful world (Borderline, Narcissistic, Psychopathic, Avoidant, Histrionic, Schizoid).   

Babies need what babies need in order to develop prosocial personality organization.  There are no convenient shortcuts. 

These personality organizations, whether characterized by society at large as good or bad, are transmitted generation to generation to generation unless there is some intervention.  The totality of experience creates dynamic epigenetic changes in the organism which lead to changes in structure and function of the developing human including through neurons that "wire together and fire together."   This process is essentially learning.   Every developing human is learning through dynamic epigenetic switches which are turned on or off by characteristics of the environmental what he or she needs to know to best survive the environment (including the parents) that he has been born into.  

"A picture emerges of a developmental pathway characterized by the confluence of effortful control and other self-regulatory skills arising in the context of a nurturing and securely rhythmic and predictable relationship between child and caregiver. The interaction of the benevolent, empathic, and attentive caregiver with the child yields growing self-regulation, the predominance of positive over negative affect, the beginnings of conscience, and increasingly smooth interactions with peers. This path of normal development is disrupted by an environment characterized by physical or emotional neglect and physical or sexual abuse. In such cases the child demonstrates negative affect, poor self-regulation, disruptions in conceptions of self and others, and disturbed relations with peers. No developmental studies of patients with borderline personality have yet been conducted, but this emerging picture resembles the adult presentation of BPO with its identity diffusion, preponderance of negative affect, poor self-regulation, and compromised relations with others."

PSYCHOTHERAPY FOR BORDERLINE PERSONALITY Focusing on Object Relations

 

Last edited by Lisa Geath

I think I mentioned James Framo's object relations based transgenerational family therapy approach. Unlike typical object relations psychoanalysts, Framo rightfully believed the whole family needs to be involved in the therapy.  Many psychoanalysts would dismiss family members as merely "collateral"  and primarily used for data collection.  I prefer Herman and van der Kolk's less stigmatizing term "Complex PTSD" to borderline personality disorder (BPD), although there is evidence from Scandinavian studies that BPD has a robust genetic predisposition.  My contention is that people with both BPD and C-PTSD (if they are indeed distinct) require compassionate, empathetically attuned treatment.  There are successful therapy outcomes using approaches that don't label people with either BPD or C-PTSD.

https://books.google.com/books...ge&q&f=false

CBT skill-deployment is pretty much worthless if the person is already in fight or flight.  If you have been raised in an unsafe family, even good things like interpersonal intimacy can put you in fight or flight ("I better not trust this-- it will blow up in my face").  If you have been abused as a child then the natural naughtiness of a normal kid might be triggering because you possess no model to deal with it normally or calmly.

Dr Allan Schore (UCLA neuroscientist) says that in the first 2-3 years, "The right brain of the mother becomes the right brain of the child."  It is the mother's right brain skill set (of self modulation, insight into the baby's feeling states, empathy, helping the baby calm down or perk up.)  Providing this help is "external co regulation."  From experiencing the patterning of how our Mom helps us feel better, we gradually learn how to help OURSELVES feel better (emotional self regulation).  

So, you do need to help the parents learn how to mirror the baby and read the baby and respond to the baby from a calm, empathic place.  

The good news is that you can teach a mother to 'mother' better -- through modeling / information.  A la Nurse-Family partnership.  And if you can support breastfeeding, it reinforces that dyadic care.

Which CBT are you talking about- there are 30-plus varieties- PE, CPT, MBCT, compassion-focused therapy, reciprocal inhibition, TF-CBT, DBT, ACT, Behavioral Activation, Beck's models, REBT, ABA, systematic desensitization, David Burns model, Stress Inoculation Therapy, Self-Instructional Training, Narrative Exposure Therapy, etc, etc. The IPNB people are long on hypothesizing and very deficient in hypothesis testing.  Much of what they call research was based of finding from fMRIs, notorious for test-retest reliability and temporal resolution issues. BTW, even they have abandoned mother-blaming terms and have supplemented "mother" for "caregiver."  Mother-blaming decontexualizes women and sees them out of the ecological space.

I'm not arguing that Dr. Dan Siegel and his colleagues have not made contributions (I'm trained in the Mindsight approach). I'm saying the extant research, free of confirmation bias, does not support the conclusions that CBT, in its many varieties, doesn't work. The concept of equinfinality (that all approaches work) has been upheld in study after study.  It would very sloppy research design to portray CBT, the first, second and third waves, in monolithic terms. How would you know what it is that you are studying? CBT could help them with that erroneous all or nothing thinking. 

One of the most effective ways of stabilizing a crisis to the point where any therapy is effective is good old fashioned needs assessment and resource brokering. It's very hard for anyone to be present for therapy when shelter, food and are necessities are not available.

Hey Mike,

I agree with Laura above.   There  are too many people who come to be "parents" after generations of neglect, absent, aggressive and rejecting parenting practices that they experienced beginning in infancy themselves.  These "parents" can't regulate their emotions because they haven't had a regulating other there for them.  They dissociate a lot and can often experience the needs of an infant as terrifying or even Rage Provoking.   Most of them will not know how to regulate a new baby.  They will not know what a baby needs developmentally.    They never had their own basic needs met. 

These folks certainly aren't going to be able to talk to an aggressive and arrogant, know it all therapist and complete  some worksheets about their automatic negative thoughts and have that work for them or their kids in real life as they dissociate to a rage state when a baby cries.   These people need someone there to show them how to recognize infant cues and to model SENSITIVE parenting (someone who responds timely and appropriately to a baby's cues instead of roughly putting the baby down in a crib and slamming the door and walking away or propping a bottle and just leaving a crying infant alone).   

A mother who rejects her infant especially when this happens over and over and over is doing serious damage to that baby's developing brain.    Babies HAVE to have loving interactions with adults who help them learn to regulate emotions starting from the time of birth.     A childhood full of these kinds of experiences devoid of love and filled only with contempt, rage and hate just doesn't respond to CBT.   CBT cannot take Posterior, Right Excess Beta and lack of alpha brainwaves and normalize that.   CBT cannot fix greater Right Hemispheric Beta than Left Hemispheric Beta (because of Left Hemispheric arrested development).   CBT cannot normalize Left Frontal Alpha and Theta Excess or fix a Beta Reversal.

Thanks 

Last edited by Jane Stevens

Hi Lisa

ACEs Connection provided information on a wonderful seminar today entitled, "Virtual Training: Fatherhood Engagement & Social Connections." I wish I could have made it, but I have clients today.  The ACEs Connection has many opportunities for excellent trainings.

As to the ACEs score, I assess client's current functioning and their level of reactivity and also other standardized instruments that are have better reliability and validity than the ACEs questionnaire. It doesn't measure the all important protective factors that mitigate between trauma exposure and effects on functioning.
 

 
Last edited by Jane Stevens

"Credentials" do not establish credibility for the majority who are just down to earth people trying to figure out how to survive a very messed up world.

I have met people from Harvard and Yale (doctors) who I wouldn't let near my dog and I have met people who have not graduated from High School that I would trust with my life. 

Also: Here is a gift.  We can both (all of us everywhere) we can all listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu6rcvcG1XA

Last edited by Jane Stevens

I have worked with court-ordered clients and, of course, they need to be engaged in the therapy process too. I've found that treating them like human beings works best, and that the same processes that work with facilitating a therapeutic alliance with any client works with those people as well. Of course, I cannot breach confidentiality and give names of people and families I've worked with.

Last edited by Michael McCarthy

As a CASA I have participated in the relational component of healing...  I think any therapist using any model who can connect emotionally with the client and show them unconditional positive regard will be a healing therapist.  However 'connect' is a "big if" when you are talking about a traumatized child.  

My CASA youth had a parent with serious mental illness for 12 years.  After 4 years of CBT therapy, followed by a suicide attempt, I became her 3rd CASA when she was 16.  I studied up on therapies for CPTSD trauma and advocated like a tiger to get her access to Neurofeedback.  It took a year+ to get permission. 

I told her that as her CASA I thought it was important for her to be aware of existing trauma therapies other than CBT, that she could avail herself of in the future if desired.  We met 2 NF people and an EMDR person.  One of the NF people was someones she connected with, so she did about 35 sessions of it which CHANGED HER LIFE.   

After about 8 sessions, she began dropping into her emotions and connecting the dots of her life, writing powerful poems, being willing to be comforted.   35 sessions, the total treatment, is about 20 clinical hrs.  Her depression remitted totally.  Currently at a UC, on track to graduate.  Good friendships.  3 years at same job.  Still close to former foster family.   

The right brain is programmed by implicit-- not explicit--  learning.  CBT uses L brain methods to talk to  R brain.  R brain responds better to somatic methods, NF, relational methods, co-regulation through dance/synchrony, etc.  Stuff that activates R brain. 

 

 

 

Hello Laura

Would you mind telling which type of the over 30 approaches under the CBT rubric was used. Francine Shapiro, the creator of EMDR borrowed heavily from cognitive-behavior approach. The concept of subjective units of distress (SUDs) was created by South African psychiatrist and father of behavior therapy. As someone trained in EMDR, I know we use the identification of negative cognitions (ND) and positive cognitions (PD) throughout the protocol. Wolpe also created what is known as "reciprocal inhibition" which pairs somatic, progressive relaxation with disturbing experiences of fear and anxiety in a process known as "systematic desensitization." 

DBT, ACT and the Beck model all emphasize relational aspects of treatment, as does compassion-focused therapy. They also mindfulness and meditative practices and do not teach a reliance of a therapist to treat ongoing symptoms, but emphasize routine practice of what is learned in therapy. Let's face it- we are all exposed to stressful and traumatic situations all the time.  You might want to view this video by Judith Beck on therapeutic relationships. She mentions "Rogerian counseling skills." Years before Dan Siegel emphasized the essentials of empathic attunement for neural integration, Carl Rogers identified the central role of empathy in therapy.

https://www.psychiatrictimes.c...ive-behavior-therapy

He took his person centered model on the road to troubled spots in the world that were embroiled in conflict like Northern Ireland and brought together waring factions in Central America.  The La Jolla group, held annual events and workshops and the person centered practitioners were among the first to address multiculturalism and the promotion of  understanding between groups. Rogers was nominated for a Nobel Peace prize his works. It's way past time to resurrect his work to address some of the troubles in the world and our country now. I t's also an apt metaphor concerning the waring factions in the therapy world- based not on science, but commercialism and salesmanship

https://www.latimes.com/archiv...1-vw-1185-story.html

Science has demonstrated time and again that:

1) There has been no improvement in treatment outcomes for decades.

2) There is statistically significant difference in treatment outcomes between the major approaches to therapy. 

You may want to investigate the research from this group:

https://www.sepiweb.org/?#:~:t...hods%20of%20inquiry.

Or this approach

https://psychology.iresearchne...%207%20See%20also%3A

Good luck in your studies. I appreciate your anecdote. Anecdotes alone are not science.

It was Trauma Focused CBT.

Another beauty of NF is no efforting and (when effective) rapid.  Not just my CASA kid.  Read Sebern Fisher's book.  

The NF therapist my CASA kid saw was a CBT therapist -- who picked up NF because, "I could help a lot of people with CBD, but there was a population that I simply couldn't help, and I wanted to help them too"

So she was an integrative therapist, the type of therapists that the research indicates has the best outcomes. Trauma has a way of impairing what is known as "locus of control."  My approach is to allow clients to select the type of therapy they want to be involved with in a collaborative fashion that is based on the best available evidence base. We use an outcome based, deliberate approach where we use a feedback informed instrument in every session were Tx progress is assessed from the client's subjective experience not imposed on them from an external source, keeping in mind the a general goal of therapy is to assist in the restoration of an internal locus of control and internal locus of evaluation so that they are the ones making meaning- it is not interpreted by a therapist, We do everything possible to allow the client to feel in control of the therapy process as a metaphor for gaining increased control over their lives.

Our therapists are cross-trained in a variety of approaches, cognitive, behavioral, affective (emotional), somatic and spiritual. All of the therapies, per se, are experiential. There are also psychoeducational and didactic components that clients can participate in. The client, not the therapist, decides when to change the treatment approach based on the session-to-session assessments guided by the client.

We are not interested in promoting one approach over another. The research (which as licensed professionals, we are obliged to follow) indicates that there is no statistical difference in one approach over another, that relational aspects are more important than treatment approach, that retention in therapy is based on collaborative relationships with clients, that clients need to experience movement in therapy or what is more commonly known as therapy progress, and that offering an array of services (resources for basic needs, medical care, child care, etc.) is more important that the treatment approach.  I would add cultural sensitivity to that list. We use the best research and scientific models for our treatment.  We are obliged to do so under our accreditation and funding sources. A personal anecdote from a third party source is not science or evidence based. EMDR is an evidence based treatment and all our staff are trained in that approach by EMDRIA approved trainers.  Our clinicians are also trained in one of the following:

https://www.scottdmiller.com/fit-software-tools/

https://fs.blog/2012/07/what-is-deliberate-practice/

I'm glad your experience indicated that the clinicians in your agency were flexible enough to try a different approach when the client was not making progress. That integrative style is exactly what we espouse. Thank you for reinforcing that with your example. it's much better in the interest of client outcomes for the therapist to be trained in a number of approaches instead of calling the client "resistant" to the therapist's inflexibility.

Last edited by Jane Stevens

The biggest problem in my mind was that the agency providing the TF-CBT used interns, who left after brief stints.  My CASA kid had 3 therapists in the system and was about to have a 4th, before I got her out.   Thus the relational component was totally undercut.

My frustration is when there is a kid who is suicidal or out of control or shut down, whatever, and youve given TF CBT 3 times, and especially if the kid is TRYING (like my CASA youth who even agreed to a 3rd CASA at 16!!)  and the psychological problem is still there, unchanged, you have to think of something else to try.  Kids who repeat what is not working simply age out of the system as WRECKS.  This is unconscionable when other therapies exist, IMO.

Another big evil is NOT diagnosing things formally which would compel a more serious therapeutic approach.  Example, RAD was talked about to old CASA but never in official ppwk.  Dissociation witnessed by me was pooh poohed.  They want the # of clients they serve to be high and not lose the revenue to an outside provider.

I still feel RAGE at that agency. 

 

I'm sorry you had that experience. Our agency provides services free, except for the custody exchange program, regardless of income through several funding sources. I do remember my days working with managed, care third- party payers. I was like walking a tight rope.  I developed a "script" where I had to say, "the client is making progress and will greatly benefit from continued treatment." This was in a residential substance use disorders treatment facility, When the insurance companies started dictating what type of therapy we performed, from their manual, I left. Another reason for leaving was the administration forbade me from working on what was known in substance treatment as Adult Children of Alcoholics and other Dysfucntional Familes  (ACoA) issues. I saw them as unprocessed trauma issues that could be treated in a co-occurring (dual diagnosis) approach. This was in the early 1990s and that facilities philosophy was that addictions are primary, progressive disorders and that looking at underlying reasons was enabling further use and excusing the addictions. We've come a long way since then and the Minnesota Model of addiction is now trauma informed. 

I now work with children and families directly on trauma and thank goodness, we don't have to deal with our state's version of Medi-Cal, Medicaid. They are very hard to even bill for. I was also trained as a medical assistant with a focus on trauma and billing. It's a relief to no longer have to reduce human suffering to an ICD or DMS code to get paid to keep the doors to the agency open. We still have to jump through a few hoops for accreditation and funding, but we are not dictated how to do our work. I'm glad you found a clinician who was able to help. 

My lunch is almost over, so I need to go.

 

Being Trauma Informed is supposed to hold prominent avoidance of re-traumatizing.  There is nothing more discouraging and retraumatizing in my mind than trying your hardest, giving it everything you've got to recover, trusting the "experts" only to finally realize that the "experts" don't really know all that much and to come to know what you have been given as "therapy" doesn't have a snowball's chance of helping you.  In fact, it made you a lot worse.    Too many innocent lives lost for me.  Too many kids that are doing what they can to recover and be productive in society being led down a path that isn't helping them.  It should not be this way and it doesn't have to be except that we have given up on everything that makes us human, our ability to empathize and take perspective and to have integrity and be honest with each other but tactful, we have given all this up for far too long and it is going to take lifetimes to ever find our way back I think.  I wish everyone in society understood how a baby develops in context of close relationship with the mother and then others in a socially structured, society.   Most of us have no idea how babies or personalities develop in context of relationship, for good or for bad.  I didn't really know until 10 months ago ---- after reading almost 200 books about infant development and personality formation and object relations and even psychodynamic psychotherapy, I didn't understand until I stumbled across concepts of dissociation, implicit memory and disorganized infant attachment.   When all the dust settles a couple centuries from now and we all finally decide we want to live in a non-violent world, babies have to be cared for properly.  

Couple articles on Resilience: 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.co...ll/10.1002/wps.20729

https://ruthfeldmanlab.com/wp-...D-Monograph-2012.pdf

Infant frontal EEG asymmetry in relation with postnatal maternal depression and parenting behavior --   (The baby's brainwaves develop around the relational input it receives).  

https://www.nature.com/articles/tp201728

Last edited by Lisa Geath

Hi Laura

Are these the CALCASA people you are writing about? I wondering before about the level training and experience that the TF-CBT therapists had and who it was who trained them?  I think if psychiatrist Judith Cohen, the originator of TF-CBT, had been the therapist, there may have been different results. Reactive Attachment Disorder should only be diagnosed and treated by an infant mental health specialist, and one of the ethical standards all mental health professions is to not work outside one's scope of practice and to make proper referrals when clients present with challenges beyond one's training.

I'm also a graduate of the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and am seeing so much sloppy handling of the SARS-CoV-19 pandemic, it's disturbing. We're finding out the contract tracers are being hired based on cronyism and nepotism, not on their professional backgrounds. That makes it more important than ever for us, as citizens, to do our part. 

Last edited by Jane Stevens

We  need court advocates. We have them at our agency. They perform an invaluable, and God Bless, they are on-call 24 hours a day. They serve the dual role of court advocate and first responders.  Thank you for your work. I'm not familiar with your agency, If you would like to post some information, I'd be interested in what your agency does. We do not work with children who have sexually assaulted. We do work with exposed children, mostly through witnessing intimate partner violence. We do, however, work with adult survivors of childhood sexual assault. ACEs apply to then also. I work mostly with children when I'm not the training role. Believe, I know the limits of any type of talk therapy with that population.  In my spare time, I'm working with someone out-of-state, on program development for male survivors of sexual assault, That group is more "invisible," though we know there is a significant number of survivors. Here's one such story that has been weighing on my heart lately. I think it demonstrates the consequences of assault don't end with the original incident.

Warning: graphic description of sexual assault

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann...xual-abuse-case.html

I'm not a survivor of sexual assault myself, just a person of conscience who experiences moral injury when I hear of any type of abuse- human or animal. Clinicians who work with survivors, do need to keep some level of composure when working with clients, and if they ever become inured to witnessing these recounts of abuse, they need treatment themselves. That treatment could involve stepping up their own self-care, more consultation, or seeking the services of a therapist (not a colleague) themselves. It's the very definition of compassion fatigue.

 

 

Desperate adults who were abused as kids (for way too many beginning in infancy) from the neglect of not having the diaper changed, from having a bottle propped as the feeding, never being looked in the eyes with kind eyes, and having a cell phone or tablet shoved in our face to the rage that comes next from the parent after a simple infant cry indicating a basic need that would have always been answered in the past when we lived in a tribal setting....  

We want and need people who provide "therapy" to understand infant brain development.  We do not want to go to a big ten school to try to find someone who can help only to find out we get to be put on a pill mill by people who profess to be amazing experts but can't help us and smugly tell us that our ideas are kind of stupid because it wasn't written up in their medical textbook.   Am I a little irritated?  Yes.  I see too many people desperate to recover falling through the cracks and being blamed for not trying hard enough when the real truth is ---- having a brain that got wired for fear and terror and that operates in mostly delta and theta brain waves and dissociation and nothing is integrated with a massive right hemisphere predominance starting from the time you were in the womb doesn't just remodel itself with these simple therapies of talk or even EMDR as an older adolescent or adult.  When I took the Nature of Forgetting - Sebern stated that even Somatic Experiencing would not be enough for these people.  These are the people where the trauma problem is going from generation to generation through massive avoidant or more commonly Type D disorganized attachment.  These are the people who end up homeless or in prison and who have all the generational trauma.  Forgive the typos --- I gotta run.  

Last edited by Lisa Geath

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