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I have several PPTs about ACEs/childhood toxic stress/early life stress in which I mention the still face experiment and other findings of the attachment literature in the context of the distinction between implicit and explicit (declarative) memory systems in the brain. The point I make is that when we elicit (declarative) memories of exposure to trauma or adversities we won't be able to elicit implicit, nondeclarative, or procedural memories. These "memories" can be ascertained nonetheless by observing and eliciting attachment-relevant information. 

Any ACEs questionnaire or interview that solely relies on conscious recollection neglects maltreatment or toxic stress that takes place before the hippocampus becomes fully functional, which is required for declarative memories and takes place around age 4-6.  

With parenting from a mother who is high in NPD traits would the adult child (without access to early memories) who displays attachment or avoidance issues automatically predispose one to believe there’s been poor bonding from a stressed mother? In the book Daughter Detox, the author sites a number of studies done on this beyond the Still Face.... an interesting study was how a father would have no chance at countering the effects from the mother. I’m reading it as part of a road map out of the nightmare from such parenting but hope this helps to quickly find the 4-5 study authors cited in the book I mentioned.

Based upon my experience, it’s a frightening thought  (hellish nightmare, literally and figuratively) to even think about the mother I know and grew up with (controlling, anxious, know it all who would not ask for guidance, and no idea about a baby as anything more than a chore to do properly) and thus re-gaining a true identity, etc. I remember seeing her face and manner as she held my brother’s kids and it wasn’t cold but lacked that intimate joyful one holds a Turkey as you carefully carry it from the store.?? Resilience  and other cognitive therapy can help but I agree with the above statement that the ACEs questionnaire isn’t able to assess this can only assume it when the victim becomes fully knowledgeable about the mothering, which may be difficult as victim will have formulated with extreme intelligence and outside manipulation that it is ultimately her fault that her life has known only pain and struggle. Then, every Dr., Psych person will have diagnosed her and have little idea about the above abuse as it mascarades through healthcare. At 50, when all dots connect, it’s sickening to accept  

sorry to hijack but Daughter Detox cites authors of studies early in book

I'm reading the book because I can confirm I've been raised by a covert narcissistic mother (also, alcoholic but stopped drinking when I was ten yet still possessed certain alarming features).  You know something is wrong and can't quite put your finger on it. It drains your life. I've seen drs. psych care, therapists etc.  The trauma of emotional abuse from this generational disorder is is handed down....people (e.g. clinicians etc) have got to start looking for this, however, in my experience when that parent is footing a bill or a dr. isn't truly aware of this subtle disease; its almost impossible to point as the core issue.  It was til I was forced to live with her at the age of 43 and start to seriously that something was quite odd and quite wrong. I felt so damaged after living with her...

Daughter Detox is a start but an book worth mentioning is written from a survivor and she captures the subtle and sometime vicious nature of this ...I highly recommend  Diana Macey's "Narcissistic Mother's." I was blown away after ten pages at how dead on this depiction is conveyed. thank you for inquiring and for whatever reason...good luck

imho   Drs., Counselor's, clinicians often have no idea that a mother with NPD or covert NPD is at the root of a multi generational, collective consciousness aspect of trauma. It's subtle. Recently, I switched to a new Psych Dr. who met my mother and I told him a few things about her and he replied, "that sweet old lady, really, she is so nice to help you with this," etc.  There is a woman who depicts the subtle aspects, weaving this destructive emotional abuse, Diana Macey's Narcissistic Mother's is a spot on account of the seemingly innocuous comments, the rages and child-like behavior of a parent and the damage is causes.     IT CAN CAUSE ANXIOUS-PREOCCUPIED, DISSMISSIVE, OR FEARFUL AVOIDANT ATTACHMENT STYLES


Excuse my non scientific review:

The Studies I'm referring:    The Visual Cliff    Eleanor Gibson (Richard Walker)  original designer....test depth perception as innate of learned. 

Then James Source (?) took it further 

Rely on mother's emotions to decide what is safe and what is

Baby is hard-wired to use mother's expressions, tones etc. as the load-star for navigating shows it begins before birth. 

(elephants are better wired to raise their young than humans)

Katy Young and Christine Parsons     babies cry can be heard within 100 milliseconds by mother in primitive part of brain....whining pitch is effective, too as studied by Rosemary sokul Chang (sp?) and Nicholas s. thompson

Secure attachment studied by John B   and expanded by Mary Ainsworth


Insecurely attached: Avoidantly, Ambivalently and Disorganized  (Studied by Mary Mane-disorganized from physical abuse n extreme trauma)

Most recently neuroscience brain development studies confirm brain development is function of programming and of environmental influence with most important given to mother attachment





Elaine Spicer posted:

Does anyone know of a powerpoint presentation that has been done specifically on trauma and attachment?  Would appreciate any and all leads.  Thank you.

Edward Tronic, Mary Main, Mary Ainsworth, Rosemary Chang & Nicholas S. Thompson, Eleanor Gibson then Richard Walker then James Source (?), Katy Young and Christine Parsons

Mary Main expanded upon extreme trauma and disorganized attachment with Mary Ainsworth....

sorry my spelling is off but these are originators of  Still Face, Visual Cliff, etc. and all have been expanded upon as you know, I'm sure. I just read these study results on basic level from Daughter Detox book

Glenn Ritchie posted:

Hi Robyn,

I saw your post this morning and was curious about daughter Detox? Was wondering how this book relates to aces? 

Looking for answers / info in any place that can help shed light / awareness.

Thank you,


Ultimately and IMHO based on reading/study/life; the development and formations on brains and personality from age 0-4 (memory, attachment etc) and even before birth are the originator or mental models we all endure ergo must have a relation to ACE's (psychologically) goes further into evolutionary legacy but that's another relatable subject

I'm a studier, like to know "why," and not an M.D., obviously but what kind of answer or shed of light are you referring and I can cite where or what I found or have lived, for what its worth. 

Also, and more daunting, what I'm referring to is the collective conscious in society (e.g., mother's should be loving...shame n guilt bias?) and the handed down generational impacts

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